Shreyas Doshi shares four key questions he wished he had asked himself earlier in his product leadership career. He discusses how being "busy" can stem from poor product decision-making, emphasizing the need for a strong product strategy over mere productivity hacks. He also highlights the importance of developing "good taste" in evaluating ideas beyond catchy phrases and authority, and encourages product leaders to align their work with their superpowers to avoid job frustration. Finally, he briefly touches on the crucial, often overlooked, skill of true listening for world-class leadership.

Key Takeaways

Shreyas Doshi shares four questions he wished he'd asked himself sooner in his product leadership career, presented live at the Lenny & Friends Summit.

The first question Shreyas explores is "Why am I so busy?" explaining that traditional productivity tricks often fail to address the overwhelming scope of work in senior product roles.

A strong, real product strategy can significantly reduce the time spent on annual planning and help manage unexpected customer escalations, making product leaders less busy.

Many product decisions are made too quickly, treating one-way doors as two-way doors, leading to more accumulated work and frustration over features that should not have been built.

The second question, "Do I actually have good taste?", challenges leaders to critically evaluate the beliefs and ideas they adopt, rather than being swayed by catchy metaphors, alliterations, or authority.

True taste involves recognizing what is genuinely good before its success is obvious, rather than simply identifying successful outcomes or being overly critical of everything.

The third question, "Why does my job feel so frustrating?", is often due to misalignment between a product leader's superpowers (preferred level of operation) and the daily demands of their role.

Leaders should make career decisions based on their true self and superpowers, rather than societal expectations or LinkedIn envy, to find fulfillment and excel in their work.

The final bonus question asks, "Am I really listening?", emphasizing that there's a deeper level of listening beyond basic active listening that is essential for world-class leadership.

0:03 today I am super excited to bring you a

0:05 very special episode with Shas Doshi

0:07 recorded live at the lenan friend Summit

0:09 in front of a thousand people in San

0:11 Francisco this is shas's second time in

0:13 the podcast his first visit is the third

0:16 most popular episode of all time of this

0:17 podcast and I love that tros was game to

0:20 try this in our conversation tros shares

0:22 three questions plus a bonus question

0:25 that he wished he'd ask himself sooner

0:26 in his career we talk about why product

0:28 leaders are so busy why the job is so

0:31 frustrating why it is so essential to

0:33 build good taste and also why you're

0:35 probably not listening as well as you

0:37 should be this was so much fun a huge

0:39 thank you to shos for doing this if you

0:41 enjoy this podcast don't forget to

0:43 subscribe and follow it in your favorite

0:44 podcasting app or YouTube it's the best

0:46 way to avoid missing future episodes and

0:48 helps the podcast tremendously with that

0:50 I bring you shos

0:57 Doshi shos thank you so much for being

0:59 here and welcome to the podcast thanks

1:02 Lenny for having me this is amazing I

1:05 was going to ask what do you uh we

1:06 recorded our first episode I think two

1:08 years ago and it was I was like in a

1:10 tiny room in my house I don't know where

1:11 you were but it was very uh not like

1:14 this thoughts on the setup of this

1:17 episode so first the Lenny Empire keeps

1:21 growing which is amazing to

1:23 see uh and second uh as I was coming up

1:27 here uh somebody told me this used to be

1:29 a car de dealership and I actually

1:32 realized I purchased my car here

1:35 what so crazy only in SF what kind of

1:39 car was this say more it's a Honda CRV

1:44 okay wow uh I'm told this venu was also

1:47 used for uh Jimmy Hendrick performed

1:50 here and artha Franklin performed here

1:53 so we're it's like Jimmy Hendrick ARA

1:56 Franklin Shas there we go that's going

1:59 up on my Twitter by

2:01 soon okay so so usually when we talk

2:06 you're full of ideas and you're full of

2:10 answers when we were preparing for this

2:12 you told me I have questions I have

2:14 questions I want to ask you know

2:17 reflecting on my career as a PM leader

2:22 over the

2:25 years there are some questions I wish I

2:28 had asked myself sooner

2:31 but I did not um and I had the great

2:35 luck of having a life a PM life full of

2:40 suffering um and I have zero complaints

2:44 about it uh but as I look back I feel

2:48 like there are some

2:50 questions that I wasn't even if I asked

2:53 myself some questions those questions I

2:55 wasn't honest to myself about the

2:59 answers so that that's what I thought

3:01 I'd do is kind of share the questions

3:03 that I wish IID ask myself sooner

3:06 awesome love that

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5:32 p a a

5:36 n.com uh I what's the first question

5:39 right so let's see the first question is

5:43 why am I so

5:46 busy why am I so busy um and the

5:50 background is that like you know I have

5:53 spent most of my career just being

5:57 completely stressed out just absolutely

5:59 stressed T out every

6:02 day uh and there were many reasons for

6:05 it but one of the core reasons was I was

6:08 always super

6:10 busy and there was always work I felt

6:13 like I couldn't do that I wanted to

6:16 do uh and so I would go home at the end

6:20 of the day and even if ID worked hard

6:23 I'd just feel

6:26 dissatisfied uh and so that that was a

6:29 constant fixture of My Life as a PM PM

6:33 leader and it's only so I I I did like

6:36 the product I did product work for about

6:38 20 years before I started this new

6:40 chapter of my

6:41 career and I think I only fixed it in

6:45 the last three or four years of my

6:48 career as a PM

6:49 leader uh but you know that means that

6:52 there were about 16 or 17 years where I

6:56 was just incredibly busy and because I

6:58 was incredibly busy I was extremely

7:00 stressed and even though I was doing a

7:01 good job I was not feeling very good

7:03 inside and then that showed up in my

7:06 body like all sorts of pains and aches I

7:08 realized were actually not physical

7:10 pains and aches they were pains and

7:12 aches from the

7:14 stress uh just like health issues that

7:16 you had yeah yeah minor stuff so you

7:18 know I mean relatively minor stuff but

7:22 you know like playing tennis and you

7:24 pull your back muscle and now you are

7:26 horizontal for 3 Days doesn't feel good

7:31 uh who here is very very busy and it's

7:33 just way too busy raise your

7:35 hand oh that's it yeah I know whoa

7:39 everyone's like everybody yeah you're

7:41 like yeah yeah I don't have to to raise

7:43 my hand I'm busy

7:48 yeah okay keep

7:50 going yeah and so uh so here's the thing

7:54 um you know when we talk about being

7:56 busy and managing your time energy all

7:59 of that

8:00 I mean this is a group of senior product

8:02 people so you all know the T tips and

8:05 techniques right like maintain a to-do

8:08 list I found the LNO framework very

8:10 useful for me which I've shared before

8:13 uh you know I used to like working out

8:15 of a

8:16 calendar those types of

8:19 things and I think you are all familiar

8:21 with those

8:23 things uh but what I wanted to call out

8:26 is that uh at some point in our product

8:30 career we reach something we reach an

8:33 immovable

8:35 force that will just overwhelm us no

8:38 matter what we do and that force is a

8:42 scope okay so as we grow in our product

8:45 career our scope grows and we kind of

8:48 like

8:49 that which is all great but at some

8:52 point if you haven't already gotten

8:54 there many of you have but for those of

8:56 you who haven't you will get there where

8:58 your scope will be so large

9:00 that no matter what you do in terms of

9:02 efficiency whatever you know framework

9:05 you use for prioritization whatever

9:07 framework or tool you use to manage your

9:09 to-do list whatever tools and techniques

9:12 you use whatever prioritization you do

9:15 your scope is so large that you are

9:18 still going to be incredibly

9:21 busy right and so so that's what I faced

9:24 like I was saying for the first about 16

9:27 17 years of working on products and only

9:30 in the last three or four years was I

9:32 able to kind of find some

9:35 answers on sort of how to deal with that

9:39 scope right uh and so perhaps we can

9:42 talk about that what do you think yeah

9:43 so you're basically saying there's all

9:45 these productivity tricks ways to do

9:47 more faster and no matter how many of

9:50 these tools you've got you're just going

9:52 to take on more and more work and

9:53 they'll Peter out I'll say uh many of my

9:56 most popular newsletter posts are here's

9:58 productivity tricks and tips right and

10:00 so people are always looking for these

10:02 and I'm curious to hear where you go

10:04 with this of just like that is not the

10:06 answer long term there's a different

10:07 approach yes uh and so so the challenge

10:11 is the

10:12 following how many of you are going

10:14 through uh some kind of annual planning

10:16 right now or you're planning on going

10:18 through annual planning please everybody

10:20 loves annual planning

10:22 great uh so let's take annual planning

10:26 right uh if you are like a high level

10:28 manager leader with in a company uh what

10:32 is the typical kind of what does your

10:35 month look like or in some cases

10:37 unfortunately what do your two or three

10:38 months look like when you're going

10:40 through annual planning right it's all

10:43 these kind of like spreadsheets to fill

10:45 out and meetings to have and

10:47 dependencies and priorities and

10:49 stakeholders to meet and so on right uh

10:52 and so so I noticed for instance that uh

10:56 at some point that was making me like

10:58 really busy

11:00 and then that was making me feel guilty

11:02 now because I had my like team to look

11:04 after and to support and then I had you

11:08 know product decisions to make and

11:09 various other things and I've gone on

11:11 some like you know planning Retreat or

11:14 whatever uh and you know there you go

11:17 you last four five six weeks like does

11:19 that sound familiar to folks like am I

11:22 yeah okay so so I noticed that I needed

11:25 to change that at some point and uh

11:29 actually found a solution again late in

11:32 my career but I found a solution because

11:34 I asked myself this question which is

11:36 why am I so busy I'm doing all the

11:37 efficiency things I'm managing my to-do

11:39 list like a champ I have my calendar set

11:42 up just right I have my routine set up

11:44 just right I'm working out so that I'm

11:46 engaged at work I'm productive I I'm

11:48 doing all of that why am I so busy oh

11:52 it's planning season and that is

11:54 supposed to take up four to 6 weeks and

11:57 this was at stripe uh when I encounted

11:59 CED this so that is supposed to say take

12:01 up four to six

12:03 weeks well I realized uh that you don't

12:07 have to do that right uh and so at some

12:10 point in my time at stripe what I

12:13 realized is the following right like we

12:15 go through a whole kind of all sorts of

12:18 you know just rituals around planning

12:21 for four to 6 weeks then we emerge and

12:24 we share our plan with our Executives

12:26 they ask us some you know you know the

12:28 questions they're going to ask like if

12:30 money were no concern what would you do

12:33 what what is your ambitious plan so if

12:35 we gave you five more Engineers what

12:37 would you do what other things would you

12:39 include in the road map right like the

12:41 standard stuff right and so you emerge

12:43 you do your presentation and then you

12:45 publish the plan and then you start the

12:48 new year with a lot of enthusiasm and a

12:51 lot of excitement and January goes fine

12:55 until you get three customer escalations

12:57 for features that were not in your plan

13:00 right and so now you try to figure out

13:01 how you going to revise resources you go

13:03 talk to some dependency team that's

13:06 going to sort of you know support these

13:07 new features from these customer

13:09 escalations and you go through that

13:11 process and you revise your plan again

13:13 and then by the time usually by the time

13:15 it's end last week of February

13:18 everybody's forgotten the actual plan

13:20 right and now we are executing off of

13:22 like some other you know list somewhere

13:26 right uh and so and by the way when you

13:28 mention this When you mention this at

13:30 times politely of course you might

13:32 mention like you know I'm noticing we're

13:34 not actually like really using the plan

13:37 that we spend four to six weeks minimum

13:40 doing uh and then some smart person in

13:43 the room chimes in

13:45 with plans are useless but planning is

13:51 everything okay some I don't know

13:53 Eisenhower somebody else I don't know

13:55 who who said this plans are useless but

13:57 planning is everything nobody knows what

13:59 it means nobody knows what that means

14:03 but everybody appreciates ah plans are

14:05 useless but planning is everything right

14:08 so I went through a few years of this

14:11 and then I go you know what I'm going to

14:15 bend some rules

14:16 here and so what I realized Lenny is um

14:21 you don't have to go through these four

14:22 to six

14:24 weeks and it was an accident basically

14:26 what happened is around that time the

14:28 product I was working on strike connect

14:30 that was like like it's like a major

14:32 product for stripe major major business

14:34 for stripe and I had put together uh a

14:38 product strategy like a real product

14:41 strategy for this

14:42 product um and so this must have been

14:45 like earlier in the year and so now

14:47 planning season came along right and the

14:51 interesting thing I found is that

14:52 because I had a real product strategy

14:55 not one of those fake ones a real

14:57 product strategy that I I had gotten

15:00 alignment on with

15:03 everybody my planning for this major

15:06 product for stripe took me like 3

15:10 days right so while a lot of my peers

15:13 unfortunately for their own products

15:15 were in this like four to six week cycle

15:18 of like planning and meeting and blah

15:20 blah blah I just put it all together in

15:22 three three days right and whatever

15:25 artifacts were needed I put them

15:26 together uh I did not fill out some

15:28 templates that that's where you know

15:30 it's about bending the rules because if

15:32 a template doesn't make sense why should

15:33 I fill it out right like there's no need

15:36 to fill it out um and so that's when I

15:39 realized that actually actually if you

15:41 have a real product strategy a real one

15:43 that everybody is aligned with that you

15:45 have got pre-alignment on then a lot of

15:48 this nonsense we tend to do with annual

15:50 planning actually goes away now you

15:52 still have to do some resource

15:54 allocation and all of that but even

15:56 there you don't need that false

15:58 precision

16:00 like how many of you have gotten into

16:01 arguments about so should it be eight

16:04 Engineers for this team in

16:07 2025 or nine Engineers for this team in

16:10 2025 like who cares we all know that

16:13 even those numbers that we set up we

16:15 don't actually follow through on them

16:16 right as 25 25 happens so that's just an

16:21 example of where we spend a lot of time

16:24 on things that we think are strategic

16:27 that we think are important

16:30 but actually we ought to spend those

16:32 that time on other much higher leverage

16:35 things right now it does require some

16:37 upfront work in this case upfront work

16:40 on a clear product strategy that

16:42 everybody understands that everybody's

16:43 aligned on but frankly if you have that

16:47 planning should be a

16:49 breeze so what would be what would be

16:51 your kind of tactical tip for folks that

16:55 want to do this better I know there's

16:57 like probably a billion examples of

16:58 these sorts of things you shared so

17:00 planning is an example folks that want

17:01 to be less busy maybe on that one is it

17:05 give yourself very little time and focus

17:07 on strategy and let that be the the plan

17:10 basically versus like every single

17:12 person and their road map for the next

17:13 six months like what's the piece of

17:15 advice to each other and then I want to

17:16 move on to the next question because I

17:17 want to make sure we get through all

17:18 these questions yes uh you know uh

17:21 there's definitely a specific tip which

17:23 is um if you do have a strategy that

17:25 will make a lot of your prioritization

17:27 problems go away uh it will make a lot

17:30 of uh planning problems go away uh and

17:34 even if you do have some escalation from

17:36 sales which you will or from support or

17:39 somewhere else you now have at least a

17:41 more rigorous framework to kind of

17:44 figure out what to do with that

17:46 escalation uh so there's definitely that

17:48 but I think the other thing I want to

17:50 share is that um and this was my other

17:53 realization as I asked the question why

17:54 am I so busy is I realize that I am so

17:59 so busy because I'm not making good

18:03 product

18:05 decisions okay now you have to

18:07 understand by this time I'm like you

18:09 know 15 years into building products and

18:11 whatever 11 years into being a product

18:14 manager and so I think I'm pretty good

18:17 like that's my kind of sort of

18:20 self-image but then again if I'm being

18:23 honest to

18:25 myself I'm not making as good product

18:28 decisions as I can uh so can I share an

18:32 example of

18:33 pleas uh

18:35 so what I noticed is that

18:38 um you know you have a meeting about

18:40 some product feature uh that somehow is

18:44 requested or is really important

18:45 whatever the case might be uh and so you

18:48 have a meeting with some stakeholders

18:49 and your engineering team designers Etc

18:52 uh and then um you're trying to decide

18:55 should we build this or not um and

19:00 you know somebody says you know what

19:02 like why are we making like why are we

19:04 doing a meeting for this you know I read

19:07 somewhere or I heard Bezos say that

19:11 two-way doors you should like it's a

19:13 two-way door you quickly make a decision

19:15 like just quickly make a decision and

19:16 move on okay this is a two-way door um

19:21 and so so you say yeah that's right like

19:24 and anytime we hear something like that

19:25 two-way door like oh that person's

19:27 really smart like so I want to be like

19:30 them uh so uh so I noticed that my

19:34 myself and my team we were making these

19:36 kinds of decisions without actually

19:38 thinking through like very clearly

19:41 thinking through customer motivation

19:43 very clearly thinking through

19:45 differentiation very clearly thinking

19:47 through a distribution approach for

19:49 whatever this feature is and you know

19:52 while it sounds like oh you know of

19:54 course you should be doing this I

19:56 guarantee you this is not how most

19:57 product teams work right like they're

19:59 talking about well is Bob the engineer

20:01 going to be free uh and when are they

20:04 free and if they are free then let's

20:06 build the fature right like that's kind

20:07 of how a lot of product decisions

20:10 happen and the challenge here with this

20:13 kind of approach uh and again this is

20:16 what happens in practice I'm not talking

20:17 about what like you whatever Theory you

20:19 read this is what happens in practice so

20:22 when you follow this approach and you

20:24 assume that oh this is a two-way door we

20:26 can kind of kill the feature right in

20:28 real it it doesn't work out that way

20:31 because here's what happens in reality

20:34 so in reality you commit to the feature

20:36 and it's going to take five six weeks to

20:38 do it uh and then a couple more weeks to

20:40 make sure to ramp it up Etc right uh and

20:43 so now the feature is out right and now

20:46 you have your q1 qbr right uh say two

20:50 months from now you have your q1 qbr

20:53 right and uh you're going to present

20:55 Your Business Review whatever you're

20:57 going to present what you did what did

20:58 you do last quarter how are your ships

21:01 performing from last quarter uh and so

21:04 now it's time to talk about this feature

21:06 right at the qbr because you have to

21:08 kind of share that now as you start

21:11 talking about this feature uh you know

21:13 the CEO will ask so yeah we you know we

21:16 launched the feature I'm very glad we

21:17 launched this feature how is it doing

21:20 right and you want to be able to say you

21:22 are the PM leader you want to be able to

21:24 say something smart and something that

21:26 makes you look competent right but the

21:29 challenge is the feature hasn't had much

21:32 adoption right so I'm not going to ask

21:36 anybody to raise hands but I think most

21:38 PMS are familiar with this with this

21:41 conundrum right uh and of course we are

21:44 verbally very agile as product leaders

21:47 so what we say is we don't have data so

21:51 we use favorable

21:53 anecdotes right and so we say yeah we

21:55 launched the feature and you know what

21:57 this customer from this company really

21:59 loves the feature and we put in an

22:01 anecdote right it's like life-changing

22:04 feature it doesn't matter that they're

22:05 the only person using it that doesn't

22:07 matter life-changing feature right we

22:09 use data when it favors us we use

22:11 anecdotes when it favors us so so anyway

22:13 so we present that now we do have the

22:16 sales counterpart in the room too our

22:18 sales counterpart and they say you know

22:20 what though uh we're still not winning

22:23 many deals because of this feature uh

22:26 and so of course the CEO asks like so

22:28 what's up like why aren't we winning

22:30 deals even though we have the feature so

22:32 the people on the customer side usually

22:34 we respond well I'm glad we have the

22:37 feature but it's not full featured yet

22:40 we need all these other bells and

22:41 whistles to meet the table Stakes right

22:44 so uh so now what happens somebody

22:47 uttered the word meet the table

22:49 Stakes now it's over for you because now

22:53 the only response you can give is oh

22:56 yeah that's already part of the plan and

22:58 now you put your engineering leader on

23:00 the spot and you say Alice isn't it like

23:04 haven't we allocated Engineers to it

23:06 already uh and so now Alice has to come

23:08 up with some response which is like yeah

23:10 yeah yeah you know Carol and David are

23:13 going to work on it you know uh it's

23:15 it's slotted for one of these Sprints

23:18 right and so now you exit the qbr you

23:21 high- five each other well good job team

23:23 great job etc etc but now you have

23:26 signed up for even more work

23:29 for a feature you should not have built

23:31 in the first

23:32 place that's why we're busy right

23:36 so and and like through a product

23:38 Leader's life what happens is we just

23:40 accumulate all of this debt right like

23:43 feature after feature so I guess what

23:46 I'm saying Lenny is one of my other

23:49 tactical tips would be sometimes it is

23:53 useful to pause for 2

23:57 minutes or two days days or two weeks

24:01 before making that decision right

24:03 because frankly most doors that look

24:07 like two-way doors are actually one-way

24:09 doors they are two-way doors at bezos's

24:12 level but as a PM leader for you they

24:15 are oneway door and that's what's making

24:17 you busy wow uh I feel like you're a

24:21 standup comedian SL product

24:24 manager that was

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25:14 v.com Lenny that's

25:18 v.com

25:20 Lenny I I know it's Spotify I heard one

25:23 of their core values is talk is cheap

25:26 but it's the virtue version of that it's

25:28 like they actually prefer to talk more

25:30 and I think that's exactly what you're

25:31 saying basically spend more time on

25:33 these things that seemingly seem just

25:35 like small little ideas and experiments

25:37 yep thinking is cheap so you should do

25:40 more thinking not less amazing shos

25:44 what's your second question yes uh so my

25:47 second question I have to um get the

25:49 words right uh do I actually have good

25:54 taste do I actually have good taste is

25:57 my second question

26:00 yeah um and you know for me uh I asked

26:05 this

26:06 question after again all of these things

26:09 by the way everything I say I have been

26:11 that guy I've made that mistake right so

26:14 that's

26:15 why like I just have to admit to myself

26:18 that yes I've made these mistakes and

26:20 one of the mistakes I made uh this was

26:23 when I was at Google uh and I was kind

26:25 of relatively new to product let's about

26:28 than 5 years and at Google there's some

26:32 parts of Google where you would be told

26:34 as like um you know kind of like a early

26:36 career PM that like we don't do strategy

26:40 here strategy is for

26:43 mbas okay we are all about execution

26:47 okay so I'm in this environment I'm

26:49 naive and I'm like I look around me and

26:53 I'm like Google is the most successful

26:54 company on the planet at the time uh and

26:59 they are saying this and I'm hearing

27:00 this consistently so it must be

27:03 right it must be right uh and so I start

27:07 saying it right I start saying oh yeah

27:10 you know execution is everything and we

27:13 don't do strategy around here uh and I

27:16 even remember there were not that many

27:17 PMS but there was a PM at uh Google who

27:21 was kind of like the same level as me

27:23 but he like just had much more wisdom

27:25 than me and he was trying to nudge me

27:28 into like I was managing a product and

27:30 he's like sh what is your strategy here

27:32 and I was like I told him the same thing

27:34 like oh no no no what are you talking

27:36 strategy we don't need strategy we just

27:37 need to get done right like that

27:39 was the thing

27:41 um and so I kept repeating that

27:44 Mantra until I got to Twitter so this is

27:49 Twitter right after their IPO uh and I

27:52 saw Twitter had like an incredible asset

27:55 which is the product and the network

27:56 effects it had other incredible assets

27:59 including the brand it had other assets

28:01 that were great including the talent and

28:04 yet this company was struggling like the

28:07 product was struggling and even if it

28:09 wasn't struggling it was making a lot of

28:10 money but the point is it was not

28:12 meeting its

28:14 potential so that's when I realized and

28:16 it took me it wasn't like some sudden

28:17 realization it took me like six to nine

28:19 months of being at Twitter this is circa

28:22 2014 uh that's when I realized that oh

28:26 my

28:27 gosh Twitter 's biggest problem is a

28:31 product strategy

28:32 problem the reason they are struggling

28:35 is they don't have a real product

28:37 strategy now of course attempts were

28:40 made to create a product strategy but it

28:43 wasn't a real compelling cohesive

28:45 product

28:47 strategy so that's when I realized the

28:50 Folly right of like oh wait a minute I

28:53 spent like I was at Google 6 years I

28:56 spent like most of those six years

28:59 kind of saying like ah strategy is

29:00 useless there's no point to strategy

29:03 execution is where it's at I'm like no

29:06 actually I was wrong right and that got

29:08 further

29:10 solidified uh as I went to stripe and I

29:13 was kind of now growing like earlier

29:14 stage products and kind of trying to

29:16 make them uh you know highly highly

29:18 successful I saw an even greater kind of

29:21 value and importance of having a clear

29:24 strategy uh and so that made me realize

29:29 basically you know we talk about taste

29:31 right like we all talk about taste and

29:32 it's about the beautiful pixels and the

29:35 perfect product and the whatever else

29:39 right like the Steve Jobs esque passion

29:41 and all of that whatever it is and yes

29:43 taste is about that but I think there is

29:46 something that we as product leaders and

29:48 certainly I did needed to

29:50 recognize about

29:53 taste as just a factor in pretty much

29:57 everything we do

30:00 right which is like do we have good

30:03 taste around the

30:06 beliefs we choose

30:08 to create within

30:11 ourselves as product leaders and then

30:14 those beliefs end up dictating

30:17 everything we do right including how we

30:19 manage how we lead how we make

30:22 decisions and so it's that taste I'm

30:25 talking about when I say do I really

30:27 have good taste

30:29 and when I asked myself this question

30:32 and again I had to be like it like I

30:36 really had to dig deep it wasn't easy

30:41 but at some point I realized that no

30:43 actually I don't have good

30:44 taste I don't have good taste in how I

30:48 choose to evaluate things that come my

30:52 way again not in terms of the product

30:55 right cuz by that time I had skills to

30:57 say well this should not be a twostep

30:58 flow this should be a three-step flow

31:00 whatever the case may be but I still did

31:03 not have good taste in terms of how I

31:06 choose what are the things I choose to

31:08 believe how do I learn who do I learn

31:11 from what content I learn from what

31:14 content I resonate

31:16 with and then I went on this journey to

31:19 kind of like try to develop that better

31:21 taste what I'm hearing is people focus

31:24 maybe too much on the output like the

31:26 experience user experience design taste

31:29 versus what they choose to take in as

31:32 informing their taste and what they see

31:34 as an example of great and and correct

31:36 is that is that what you're saying yeah

31:38 and you know like look taste is about

31:41 the

31:45 ability to

31:47 identify what is really good

31:58 without

32:01 needing to see its

32:06 results right because look it requires

32:09 Zero taste right now for anybody to say

32:13 oh that CEO of Nvidia is a

32:17 genius right Jensen is a

32:20 genius if you are saying that in

32:23 2024 it actually requires Zero taste

32:26 because you can just look up nid stock

32:30 price like it requires zero

32:34 skill but to be able to say that in

32:38 2010 you have to realize Jensen Wang

32:41 didn't change much between 2010 and

32:44 2024 right so like Lenny even in sports

32:48 right like there's this

32:50 um like there's this saying game

32:53 recognize game right and that's that's

32:58 about about taste but what we need to

33:00 understand is it's game recognized game

33:03 before the game is

33:05 called right like game recognized game

33:08 in the practice

33:11 session cuz it takes no genius right now

33:14 to say well Patrick Mahomes is like you

33:16 know great quarterback right

33:19 like or Virat kohle is a great cricketer

33:22 or whatever else right like it it

33:23 requires no genius to do that it

33:26 requires Zero taste

33:28 uh so I also believe some of us like

33:30 especially as we get more senior and we

33:32 get more successful and you know we we

33:35 just like get a lot more scope and

33:36 responsibility and a lot of accolades we

33:39 become these stuff graders right like I

33:41 don't like anything right like ah this

33:43 is crap this is crap this is crap again

33:46 that requires Zero taste anybody can say

33:48 that right anybody can just say

33:50 everything is horrible

33:52 right um so I do think there is

33:55 something about being able to understand

33:57 that and I think there's like like I'll

33:59 share some examples right like this

34:02 two-way door thing so let me just share

34:04 a few observations if I might so like

34:07 the first one is we get overly excited

34:12 about cool

34:15 metaphors okay like one way door Two Way

34:18 doors right there's some guy I don't

34:20 know who it is I just read somewhere

34:21 there's some guy who had written a blog

34:23 post about this this idea but he called

34:27 it reverse ible and irreversible

34:31 decisions okay and it was the same idea

34:34 and I think somebody was lamenting that

34:36 that did not catch on IR reversible and

34:39 irreversible decisions but what caught

34:41 on is two-way door and oneway door

34:45 what's the

34:46 difference the only difference is you

34:49 got attracted to the catchy metaphor

34:52 right and the other one is the authority

34:53 bias because Bezos said it right uh

34:59 take another example we get very like we

35:01 get very impressed with um

35:05 alliterations I'm serious we get very

35:07 impressed with alliterations okay so uh

35:11 how many of us love fail fast fail fast

35:15 okay nobody's going to raise hands

35:18 now okay fine maybe you truly don't love

35:21 fail fast how about fast

35:24 follow how many of you love fast follow

35:27 like

35:28 let's consider that right like fail fast

35:31 we're going to fail fast what if that

35:34 thing were called fail quickly it's the

35:37 same

35:39 meaning do you think you would be as

35:42 attracted to that idea if it were called

35:44 fail quickly no probably not so what's

35:48 what changed the only thing that changed

35:51 is one is an

35:53 aeration right so so I see this in

35:57 everything like you know let's see um

36:00 you know the other one is

36:02 um we also get very impressed with

36:05 complicated charts and math we don't

36:11 understand and some of you product

36:14 leaders who are at the top of the game

36:15 you actually use this as a

36:17 strategy

36:19 right so so as I realize that I here's

36:25 the outcome here's the outcome of kind

36:27 of like that ask asking myself that

36:29 question was

36:32 that what I realized is I kind of you

36:36 know everybody says oh I'm a first

36:37 principal thinker like you know I think

36:39 like I'm a rigorous thinker whatever but

36:42 I realized that like if I really want to

36:43 be that I have to shed a lot of these

36:47 like just patterns that were just like

36:49 you know built in me right and I I kind

36:53 of have to evaluate the

36:56 idea separate from all of its like

36:59 social proof and Authority proof and

37:03 whatever

37:04 else right and that ended up

37:09 being a meaningful change in my growth

37:13 as a product leader because the moment I

37:16 started shedding these kinds of social

37:18 proofs and Authority proofs and all of

37:21 that it just made me a much we all again

37:25 think we are critical thinkers but we

37:26 are not right so made me a more critical

37:30 thinker I want to move on to the next

37:32 question just so we can get through some

37:33 of these questions before I do can you

37:34 just show people your notes real quick

37:36 just like show it like from a distance

37:39 this is how shos plans for something

37:41 like this there's like color

37:43 coding I love like I wish I understood

37:46 what was going on there this is this is

37:49 my uh people ask me what's your favorite

37:51 note taking app it's a common question I

37:53 get and I say this right like it's a $5

37:56 like I guess the pen cost $3 and I think

37:58 the Office Depot uh clipboard cost wait

38:01 isn't that pen does it have the

38:02 different color click a yes yes yeah my

38:04 the big yeah exactly okay this is great

38:07 that's GNA be another podcast

38:09 episode okay so we want to try to do two

38:11 more questions we have six minutes left

38:13 the last one's a bonus so maybe we touch

38:15 on it briefly shre what's your third

38:18 question so my third question is why

38:20 does my job feels so frustrating why

38:24 does my job feel so

38:26 frustrating uh it goes back to the point

38:29 that like you know I look I loved loved

38:32 my PM leadership job right like I just

38:35 absolutely loved it

38:38 and I think looking back I would not

38:40 have exchanged it for anything else any

38:42 other experience that said there were

38:45 daily frustrations there were daily

38:47 frustrations in that job and a lot of it

38:50 has to do with the fact that uh you know

38:51 the PM leaders job is extremely lonely

38:54 the PM's job the PMS on your team their

38:57 job is all also lonely but a PM leader

38:59 job is further lonelier right so there's

39:02 that there's also you know uh what I

39:06 what I learned at the time when I

39:08 started asking this question is

39:13 that our jobs get frustrating when we

39:19 behave most of the time in

39:25 misalignment with our superpowers and

39:28 who we truly are at our

39:31 core okay so for me as I was evaluating

39:35 that question it's like why am I getting

39:37 frustrated every day I love the job I

39:39 love the macro but I do not like the

39:42 macro a micro and so why is that uh and

39:47 that's when I actually like there's uh

39:50 you know a simple framework that I've

39:54 shared uh which is you can be doing your

39:57 work at three levels product work

39:59 happens at three levels there's the

40:00 impact level there's the execution level

40:02 and there's the Optics

40:04 level my Epiphany as I was kind of

40:07 exploring this question

40:11 was I have a preferred level at which I

40:15 like to

40:16 operate but if most of the day and most

40:19 of the week and most of the month I am

40:22 forcing myself to operate in not my

40:26 happy place in my non default

40:29 level that makes me very

40:32 frustrated right so so many product

40:35 leaders their happy place is the

40:37 execution

40:39 level you know in my case my happy place

40:41 is the impact level so that is fine it

40:46 you can your happy place can be whatever

40:48 level it doesn't matter but the point is

40:50 like as you go you know as you go higher

40:53 up in the corporate ladder no matter

40:56 what kind of company it is you are now

40:58 going to have to spend a lot of time on

41:00 Optics at the Optics level and I have

41:03 willpower I have the skills to do it I

41:05 have all of that so it's not about

41:07 willpower or skills but willpower is

41:11 finite right so as I spent day in and

41:15 day out like just like mostly doing

41:18 Optics work I realized I was not happy

41:21 and I was getting frustrated right and

41:25 so that's when I realized the solution

41:27 which is

41:28 I kind of I have to abandon the

41:31 traditional path that like oh after this

41:34 level I'm supposed to do this and then

41:35 I'm supposed to do this and then this is

41:37 what Society expects this is what my mom

41:39 expects this is what what will people

41:41 say on LinkedIn when they see my

41:43 LinkedIn profile right like oh he has

41:45 this progression this and then what

41:47 stopped why did it

41:49 stop right so when I realized this I

41:52 said you know like when a when when a

41:54 team grew to a certain size so when I

41:55 was at stripe when I realized this when

41:57 the team I was managing it had a fan out

41:59 of about 50 people so this includes like

42:01 engineers and everything I said this is

42:03 enough because for me like anytime a

42:06 team goes to like 50s and hundreds and

42:10 Beyond it is a law of corporations that

42:13 you're going to have to spend a lot of

42:15 time at the Optics level right so

42:18 instead of just pushing pushing through

42:20 against like you know who I truly am

42:23 what did I do I just went back to more

42:26 of an earlier stage product right

42:28 uh and then I was fine with like you

42:29 know what I'm not going to like you know

42:31 just play the corporate game as an

42:34 example so I guess my you know my

42:37 suggestion would be like identify your

42:41 superpowers and you know like like

42:43 Shakespeare said like like to thine own

42:45 self be true right like just be honest

42:48 to yourself like operate your career and

42:52 make your career decisions not out of

42:55 expectation not out of envy

42:58 like the LinkedIn Envy of like oh this

43:00 person is at a different level we both

43:02 went to the same grad school there like

43:04 so I got a no identify your superpowers

43:07 because if you identify your superpowers

43:09 and work in accordance with them you

43:11 will do the best work of your life you

43:14 will love it and you will be great at it

43:18 and you won't have that

43:24 frustration I wish we had an hour for

43:26 every single one of these questions I

43:27 feel like there's so much more to get

43:29 into we have 40 seconds do you want to

43:31 touch on your last question or do you

43:33 want to leave that for a followup

43:35 discussion let's touch on it let's touch

43:37 on it we got to go though in 30 seconds

43:39 all right my last question is am I

43:41 really

43:42 listening okay and this is perhaps the

43:46 hardest one for me because I thought of

43:48 course I'm a good listener because I

43:50 listen then I recap and I make eye

43:52 contact and I tell them this is what I

43:54 heard and all of that nonsense I

43:56 realized there is an entirely other

43:58 level to

43:59 listening

44:03 which once you understand that there's

44:06 an entirely other level to listening

44:09 that is what enables you to be a

44:11 world-class

44:13 leader and so that is what I guess my

44:17 last takeaway is is like ask yourself am

44:19 I really listening if you want resources

44:22 there are very few people who actually

44:23 talk about what that real listening

44:25 means I would refer you to what Rick

44:27 Rubin says about listening I would refer

44:30 you to what de Hawk said about listening

44:33 and uh what duckers said about listening

44:35 as some pointers amazing tros you said

44:38 you were going to hang out for the next

44:39 hour somewhere you want to share that

44:41 real quick and then we'll get off yes I

44:43 maybe try to hang out in the back part

44:45 of the room um and be quiet back there

44:47 too okay uh stas thank you so much for

44:50 being here great thank

44:52 you oh should we take a picture oh yeah

44:55 we're going to take a quick selfie we're

44:57 going to take a picture there we go

44:59 they're going to turn the lights on I

45:00 think

45:02 okay all right

45:07 folks thank you so much for listening if

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45:27 see you in the next episode

4 questions Shreyas Doshi wishes he'd asked himself sooner

Name: 4 questions Shreyas Doshi wishes he'd asked himself sooner
Channel: Lenny's Podcast

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4 questions Shreyas Doshi wishes he'd asked himself sooner